An Interview with Hope: 10 Years in the Sandwich Generation, and Going Strong
On cross country moves, the impact our views on aging have on how we show up as a caregiver, supporting kids through difficult emotions. AKA how 4 Aging Parents + 3 Kids = much more than 7.
Hope’s journey over the last decade illustrates the importance of a healthy, marathon mindset on caregiving, aging, and family dynamics. She details what it was like to be raising three young children while navigating supporting all four of her and her husband’s parents from afar as they experienced health crises, and how this ultimately led to all four parents moving to be geographically closer to her and her family. Hope highlights the importance of dignity as a caregiving value, of exploring how our own views on aging impacts how we approach caregiving decisions, and the crucial role friendships and therapy play in sustaining our wellbeing while in the sandwich generation.
Multiple Diagnoses and Cross Country Moves
Lissy: I’m curious to know how you started to realize, Oh, I am a part of the sandwich generation now.
Hope: When my kids were 4 and 2, maybe not even, one of our parents had a stroke, and then through the process of diagnosing the stroke, there was found to be brain tumors. And they were benign, but they had to be removed because it was what was causing the stroke.
There had been other smaller things before that point. But I think it was at that point when medical power of attorney had to be filled out, and financial power of attorney, those safeguards. And then one set of parents moved out to us willingly across the country, and then one set of parents had to be moved out here to be closer, because there kept being so many health issues.
So the process of moving two sets of grandparents across the country with small children really solidified that spot in the sandwich generation. One set of grandparents packed up their own house, and for the other set of grandparents, the house was just too big for them to pack it up by themselves.
Lissy: What did it look like before those moves took place? Was it something where you were trying to support from afar, and it just wasn’t working?
Hope: In 2018, I was pregnant with our third. One grandparent was diagnosed with a form of cancer, caught very early on during my pregnancy. And then another grandparent was diagnosed with dementia during my pregnancy.
Before that point, thankfully, I was a stay-at-home mom, which meant that when things happened, I had a buffer to drop things and take the kids and go across the country when I needed to. But the delay of getting there was too big of a gap for it to be continually feasible with multiple children.
Lissy: Yeah. I mean, I think even the idea of dropping everything and going to support them with your kids, and being pregnant, just really speaks to the level of stress and chaos that you can find yourself in. Even just the premise of doing that is so stressful.
Hope: Yeah, it was very stressful for me. I remember one time there was a surgery, and the kids were little. We only had two kids at that point. And I said, we’re going to stay home during the surgery. And once everyone’s done with the surgery, we’ll come visit during recovery. And they replied, no, I want you in the waiting room.
And I was potty training one kid at the time. And they said, it will be comic relief, it will be a distraction, I need you guys there, so I’m not sitting waiting for hours. And, I mean, it was chaotic and stressful, potty training in that hospital waiting room, but it was what that grandparent needed, to have the love and the chaos while we waited for hours.
The Same Task in Reverse Directions
Lissy: Yeah. And I’m wondering, once everybody was geographically closer, I imagine there would be some relief that comes from that, but then also it opens this door to a whole new set of things that you become potentially available or needed for? And I’m wondering how you manage that.
Hope: Yeah. I mean, in so many ways, raising kids and caring for aging parents is the same task in reverse directions. Before we were at this stage where we’re at now, when we were raising our kids and they were smaller, it was always, don’t do anything for them that they can do for themselves. And even if it takes 5 minutes to put their shoes on. Let them have the ownership of putting their shoes on, right?
And I think it’s this line holding dignity for them, when you are caring for aging parents where you have loving relationships. That line of holding dignity for them, and not stepping in and doing things for them that they can do for themselves.
But also watching closely enough to know when they no longer can do that task, right? Whether it be taking away the driving, or going to a doctor’s appointment so you get the clear information. But waiting till that point before stepping in.
Lissy: Yeah, and I think sometimes there can be the impulse to try and get ahead of it, or prevent things, but I think to your point about bringing dignity into the conversation, it’s maybe that something will be missed in a medical appointment. And then that’s how you know. And that it is worth having to deal with the cleanup of it, to let your parent have that independence and that freedom until it’s really been proven that they need more support.
Hope: Yeah, and I also think, my kids are watching us, and if this is done well, my kids will eventually take care of my husband and I. And I think, what would I want? If the roles were reversed, when would I want my kids to step in for me? When would I want them to let me be?
Lissy: I think that’s such a beautiful way of looking at it. And I think it brings a cultural issue into the room, in that we don’t want to talk about aging, we don’t want to talk about dying. There’s this attitude of, if I don’t talk about it, it’s not gonna happen to me, you know? And if we distance ourselves, and be so far away from it, then we don’t need to think about our own mortality. But by bringing it into the room, it helps you be more compassionate and thoughtful in this present moment.
Hope: Yeah. I’m in my 40s now, and there’s so many messages of, stay young, get the anti-aging cream. I don’t want to fear old age, and I don’t want my kids to fear old age.
It’s still a treasure that people get to live so long to see their grandkids, and be at the sporting events and the band concerts. It’s not something to avoid, but also it’s not easy. Trying to hold the beauty of it, and the terribleness.
The Reality of the Grandparent-Grandchild Relationship
Lissy: How old are your kids now?
Hope: My kids now are 14, 12, and 7.
Lissy: Okay. What is their relationship like with their grandparents?
Hope: Last week, I took one of the grandparents out for lunch, and we finished lunch, and I got up really fast, with 40-year-old knees, to go leave. And I left the restaurant pretty quick, and one of my kids was like, you left too fast. You can’t move that fast, they don’t move that fast, you have to go back. And, I went back, and my oldest was standing next to his grandparent, acting like his arm was just out, but he was waiting because he knew his grandparent would need a hand to stand up from the chair.
So, it’s not the normal grandparent-grandkid relationship, where they’re making cookies and building gingerbread houses. But, they know they’re loved, and they will advocate for their grandparents. They will tell off bus drivers, if bus drivers don’t park close enough to the curb for a wheelchair to get out on the sidewalk. They are loved, and they are willing to protect, but it’s not the same as the movies make it seem.
Lissy: Yeah. What I’m hearing in those examples, which I love so much, is that there’s this awareness and thoughtfulness around how different people live, and what different people’s needs are.
And I think that’s such an awesome thing to be teaching your kid. Talking about aging, but then also just talking about people in general. I think that kind of thoughtfulness and awareness transcends the aging process, and helps them just be better citizens in the world.
Hope: Yeah, and all the grandparents are excited when the grandkids get there! I wonder what they will take away, as they grow older. For my youngest, she was born after the dementia diagnosis, after the cancer diagnosis, so she has different memories than my bigger kids do. Their memories will be different than the kids who built the gingerbread houses.
Lissy: Yeah, and I think everybody enters this phase with some sort of preconceived notion around what it “should” look like, and I think that’s so rare, for it to actually look like the way it’s portrayed in the movies.
Hope: Yeah. I think my kids had that, though, before all the diagnoses. My big kids did.
Lissy: And so now you’re helping them hold the disappointment that this relationship is going to be different, helping them move through that to then be able to be open to what it will be, what the reality of it actually is, and where those moments of joy are, whatever they look like.
What Helps: Therapy, a Refreshing TV Show, and Friendships
Lissy: I’m wondering if you could speak to what you have found to be the most helpful? Either resources, or support, or strategies you used?
Hope: We started marriage therapy to navigate this, because there’s more emotion tied to my set of parents for me, and more emotion tied to his set of parents for my husband.
I wish we would have gone earlier, setting expectations and, not rules, but guidelines. If we say yes to this thing for this set of parents, it doesn’t mean we have to say yes to the same thing for this set of parents. Because there are different health concerns, there are different mobility issues, there are different driving issues, and so, saying yes to one set and no to another set doesn’t define love, right?
And sitting down and being able to set the foundation of: we are in this together in our marriage for the long haul, and taking care of all four parents. And that the love for each parent will look the same, but the way that it’s expressed will look different, because of different needs, right?
Lissy: Absolutely. I think that totally makes sense. Yes, they are four parents aging. But each is their own person, with their own set of personality traits and needs and, of course, it’s going to feel different.
Hearing you describe this, there are so many opportunities for it to feel like it’s competing resources, because there’s only so much time in your day or energy in your tank. And so being able to come back to: in our partnership, we are in this together, and we understand the nuances of it. That feels so crucial.
Hope: Yeah, I mean, you’re not told that, ever, that when you fall in love, you may have to bathe an aging parent.
Lissy: Yeah. And within your support system, who is willing to do what, with the needs that you have for each parent. What feels sustainable and reasonable. Being able to understand that everybody has a different set of expectations, or limits around that.
Hope: Yeah, and capabilities! My husband already has a medical degree. And so therefore, then, there’s things he should manage, because he already has the skills, where I can do other things, like calling ADA disability line when there’s a problem with public sidewalks or things like that, and there’s other things that he’s good at that I should not step into, such as changing bandages. You know, knowing what our strengths are, and not being offended when we don’t have the same strengths.
Lissy: Yeah. And that it’s, in fact, better that you don’t have the same strengths, because it allows you to kind of spread your talents across a wider range of needs, because there’s so much that needs to be done.
Hope: Yeah.
Lissy: I’m wondering if there are other things that were really helpful for you, or that you’re finding helpful now.
Hope: Okay, this is going to be unexpected. Ted Danson has a show on Netflix called A Man on the Inside.
Lissy: Yes, I love that show.
Hope: He goes into a senior living home, and you see all the older people’s dynamics, displayed, and there’s a daughter telling a parent, you need to find a hobby, I think that was really helpful. I mean, even though it’s a comedy, my husband and I are crying as we’re watching it. In so many ways, they put the experience out there without giving it a handbook.
Lissy: Totally. I’m making my resources page for my coaching program, and that is on it, because I think it’s such a beautiful portrayal of grief and love, and the struggles of his daughter navigating feeling like she is failing as a parent, and then she’s struggling with her dad, and it’s like yes, that is how it feels sometimes.
Hope: And also helpful are intergenerational friendships - I have people who are younger than me who I’m friends with, who aren’t yet in this stage. So they can be a sounding board. Where the people who are my age are also in the stage I’m in, and, they can say, oh my gosh, yes, that also happened this week! But, the people who are not yet there, it can be a little bit of a break from the reality, I think.
Lissy: Yeah, and I think having those different types of supports are really helpful, normalizing with the people who are also going through it. But then also to have somebody say like, WHAT? Because sometimes yeah, it is ridiculous. You’re right, that is ridiculous that that’s what happened, you know? I think there’s a function for both.
Hope: Yeah, one set will be, oh yeah, no, that’s on brand, and another set is like, what are you talking about?
Not Enough Hours in the Day
Lissy: And then the flip side of that question: are there things that you desperately needed and you couldn’t find? Or resources that you wish were available to you?
Hope: I think there’s just a lack of time and finding the resources for a lot of things, right? Juggling the extracurriculars, juggling schools, juggling parent-teacher conferences, and kids’ medical appointments, and then adding in the other stuff with parents, and jobs, and then sitting down and actually finding the resources. I said to someone, maybe we should join a support group, but I also don’t know where we would fit that time into the schedule.
I think Hilarity for Charity, Seth Rogen with his wife, I think they’re doing more stuff to try to make the conversation of caregiving more mainstream. I don’t know if that’s bringing more awareness, or if my algorithm’s just feeding me more things about that type of support.
Lissy: Yeah. I think that speaks to the ongoing struggle, which is, yeah, I would like more support, but where do I find the time to put it in the schedule? It’s really hard to even know how to prioritize that sometimes.
A Marathon, Movement-Oriented Mindset
Lissy: I’m wondering, within all the demands on your time, what are the things that you do for yourself to help maintain your sanity and take care of yourself?
Hope: Well, I have always been a writer, and been documenting all of it as a way to process things. A space to put the grief and the joy. And so, writing has been really helpful for me. [Subscribe to Hope’s Substack for stories from the sandwich generation!]
And our kids are old enough now that if a night is calm, or we have an hour and a half, we’re like oh wait, hey! They’re watching a movie, quick, let’s go grab a bite to eat down the road. They’re now old enough that we can leave the oldest two in charge and grab the spontaneous date nights, where when they were younger, it was a whole ordeal to plan it out. But I think we’ve always made it a priority to do date nights, even in the chaos of it.
Right now, in this season with our parents, everyone is stable. There hasn’t been a crisis in, oh, several months? It’s just the normal stage, whereas when it’s a crisis then date nights get set to the side. And knowing that that’s a season, and giving space for that.
Lissy: Maintaining that everything is temporary, and making sure that when you’re in a stable period, that you weave that time for connection back into your routine.
Hope: Yeah, because I think this is going to be a marathon. We have the privilege that all four parents are still alive. We’re 10 years in at this point. And if the cards fall in our favor, it will continue for many more years. So, holding each season with grace and seeing the goodness in each season.
Lissy: Yeah. I think that’s an important mindset, going back to how you think about aging. It’s ultimately these opportunities for connection, for longer. And so, maintaining what you need to do to care for yourself, to be able to show up and be open to those moments, and not just be so stressed about the logistics of everything. Creating space for the continued connection and those moments of joy.
I’m wondering if there’s anything else that you think would be worth talking about today. Anything that we missed?
Hope: I’m part of this writing group where I’m the youngest by probably 20 years. And one of the people in the group said, there is always a shift where the parent changes roles in your life. And I think we talk so much about launching our kids out. And I think it kind of comes as a blindside when the role changes with your parents. There is so much talk of building a strong human, launching them out into the world, and creating a kind person.
And there’s so little talk of the change that happens with the relationship with your parents, that there’s two sets of changes. You knew it was going to change when you went to college or when you moved out, but I don’t think we see it coming, this next one, as our parents change.
I want my kids to know about this change of a relationship. I don’t want them blindsided by it. And I want other people to know that this is normal, this is a normal growth spurt. No matter what story your parents walk as they head toward the end of their life, every single person hits this. Whether it’s fast, or years, your relationship changes, and the role you play changes, and that’s normal and good. And hard.
Lissy: I love that, normalizing that it happens. That the relationship kind of merges back together. It throws on its head the idea of “progress” towards this ultimate independence. Because no, we come full circle together in this way.
Hope: Yeah. I’m working on a piece in my head about tetherball. Did you ever play that game, where the ball keeps coming back to you? You keep sending it, and it just keeps coming back to you. And I think when you get the privilege of being in a healthy, loving family, it’s like tetherball.
You keep sending your loved one off, and they’re just going to keep coming back to you, right? Whether they go on their adventures for 5 years, and then they come back. Or they’re gone for the school day, and then they come back. Or you have to move them back across the country, and that’s them coming back.
Lissy: I like that metaphor. I think it speaks to the fact that there’s always movement within family relationships. That if we are able to continue to show up with love for each other, then we can figure out how, within that movement, everybody fits together and we can take care of each other. I think that’s really beautiful.
TL;DR: Biggest Takeaways and Reflections for Caregivers
Lean on friends for support: Talk honestly with friends who are also in the sandwich generation (for empathy and camaraderie), and those who aren’t yet in it (for validation that some of this sh*t is truly wild and out of the ordinary)
Center dignity on both sides of the sandwich: dignity in parenting and in supporting your aging parent means creating space for independence and self-sufficiency as much as possible, even if it means being less proactive at times.
Embrace the beauty and the mess that comes with this phase: As Hope shares “it’s still a treasure that people get to live so long to see their grandkids, and be at the sporting events and the band concerts. It’s not something to avoid, but also it’s not easy. Trying to hold the beauty of it, and the terribleness.”
Use the tetherball metaphor: instead of thinking about full independence as being the ultimate goal within a family, notice how levels of independence and interdependence fluctuate throughout the life cycle. This is a normal growth spurt within your family system.
Resources that Hope recommends:
Follow Hope’s Substack, Nearly Normal, a space to feel supported and seen through Hope’s writing on being in the sandwich generation. Think of it as a 10 minute support group, brought to you through storytelling.
Know someone who might resonate with what you just read? Give them a virtual hug by sharing this interview.
Are you interested in being interviewed for Stress & Love? I’m looking to interview individuals who have gone through the sandwich generation, as well as those who are in it as we speak. To clarify: you don’t need to be a primary caregiver to be considered part of the sandwich generation. If you are supporting your parent emotionally, logistically, financially, or otherwise, and you are also navigating raising your own kids, then I would love to hear from you!
And lastly, if you are interested in 1:1 coaching and resources, please reach out to me through my coaching website, Sandwich Support Co, at the link below.